Emma Watson interviews Caitlin Moran for Our Shared Shelf
47 comments:
Anonymous
said...
As if you can invent Jesus Christ and the Crucifixion. That is reality, historically proven. If he is the Son of God is faith. But you don't ask kids to come up with a religion. The Christian faith is a oral tradition over 2 thousand years old. Some of the greatest saints- women have changed the world. That woman speaks total nonsense. If you have any knowledge at all, you can only shake your head.
There are some things I agree with and a few things I don't, but overall it's interesting. Hopefully, Emma will release the full interview soon. Are you feeling better, Eden? I hope you are considering what happened last week.
It was a very interesting interview covering many aspects of Feminism and women issues in general. They did agree on most key point I would have liked if they has explored some of the areas the did not agree on Caitlin being very let wing and Emma more liberal.
The ideas on education and exploring early what Gender and gender inequality means were particularity relevant.
I couldn't watch all of it, but I like the "culture wins" comment. I don't know if I'd call it culture, but art certainly wins. Unfortunately, there is also a significant anti-art, anti-intellectual movement, especially in places like the USA.
Listen to the philosopher Peter Kreeft, a philosopher at Boston College. Peter Kreeft looks at what is normal in society and promotes the faith in an individula regardless what they call themselves.
Peter Kreeft, a modern lay person, says that the saint is the normal person. See him on youtube. Now that is worth listening to: intellectual, critical of our society and the way we may see things, and food for thought. I may not agree with everything, but that is good intellectualism from the USA.
I like that piece on optimism there is a tendency to dystopian fiction all end of the world stuff we have at the moment may be a little more of the Gene Roddenberry would not go a miss. You can't make a difference in the world with some belief things can improve.
We have made progress and continue to do so keeping an optimistic outlook can only move things on, can't make them any worse.
^ lol, they always do that. Get so foaming at the mouth they just start blurting out 1984 and Matrix references without any regard to making sense. But that was never really even a risk for you in the first place, huh? Making sense, that is.
She wasn't talking about 1984. I guess you don't know your history, because she was talking about the enlightenment as when people developed these lofty goals, and the post-enlightenment (which includes the era 1984 was written in) as when people have given up on attaining these goals. It's really incredibly simple. How embarrassing for you.
People are disillusioned with those goals because people have corrupted and perverted them time and again in reality. And besides that, there's nothing interesting about a perfect world with no conflicts, which is what a utopia is. So of course storytellers and filmmakers will choose the best story. Without conflict, there is no story to tell. So we get cautionary tales instead of blueprints for tedium. Cautionary tales are AS useful and more interesting.
So you're a collectivist then. Like I said, a boot licking puppy. Collectivism has never created anything of lasting value. The Nazis (who were also socialists) were destroyed within thirteen years. Communist Russia crumbled beneath itself. And the collectivist EU is experiencing upheavals. Individualism will win out in the end. It's the individual who creates, innovates and moves the world forward.
Groupthink, which is the natural consequence of collectivism, destroys any sense of individuality or creativity (for which individuality is a KEY ingredient). Thus, they create nothing. They simply claim what other individuals have made as their own. Have you ever heard a person saying "We did this" or "We did that?" Collectivism at work. They have no merits of their own so they claim the merits of their best elements to BE their own.
Also, history is a lie. Subjective to the person telling it. I could just as easily publish a book called "The Evilest Women in History" and fill it with feminist names and make up horrific crimes and I'll bet there will be people who would buy into it.
Sure Eden going to shout at me again for this but you did ask Anon.
You know groupthink best describes prejudice grouping others based on a single trait. You have an immature view of politics and peoples motives. You think me a puppy, fine I do not act out of fear, generally the source of anger. I believe in equality for everyone and fight for that even for you Anon.
To paraphrase the poet John Donne "No man (or woman) is an island"
I disagree. Everyone is a sovereign entity in and of itself and therefore is an island. A sovereign entity with dreams, ideas and goals which are more important and meaningful than any group of collectivist leeches.
No man is an island, Entire of itself, Every man is a piece of the continent, A part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less. As well as if a promontory were. As well as if a manor of thy friend's Or of thine own were: Any man's death diminishes me, Because I am involved in mankind, And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.
I think Ross hit the nail on the head, there. Our Anon here is accusing others of what they subconsciously see in themselves.
Anon: "People are disillusioned with those goals because people have corrupted and perverted them time and again in reality. And besides that, there's nothing interesting about a perfect world with no conflicts, which is what a utopia is. So of course storytellers and filmmakers will choose the best story. Without conflict, there is no story to tell. So we get cautionary tales instead of blueprints for tedium. Cautionary tales are AS useful and more interesting."
Yeah, but her point was that now we actually have the knowledge and technology to achieve these goals. Sure conflict is interesting, but surely you don't believe that's the sole reason dystopian and apocalyptic fiction is so overwhelmingly prevalent?
So, your initial issue with the video was a complete misunderstanding on your part, and afterwards it sort of fizzled out into a forced criticism of her meaning behind the prevalence of dystopian fiction, and a series of personal attacks against Ross. I think we're all caught up, then.
Symptoms of Groupthink: 1.Over estimations of the groups power and morality (characterized by an unquestioning belief in the groups morality which encourages them to ignore the consequences of their actions and illusions of invulnerability leading to excessive optimism and risk taking.)
2.Closed mindedness (characterized by rationalizing warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions and stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, impotent or stupid.)
3.Pressures towards uniformity (characterized by censorship and self censorship of ideas that deviate from the group consensus, illusions of unanimity among group members with silence often being taken for agreement, direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group couched in terms of disloyalty and Mindguards, which are self proclaimed guardians of the group who shield it from dissenting information.
I suspect most things do sound like a religion to you Anon.
Feminism is not it is a moment for equity for women across the world, supported by a group of like minded individuals. There are women, men, religious and not including Emma and many other personalities; no central core and no conspiracy.
PDXP has addressed your other points. I would just add you look at the why people believe and do what they are trying to correct in the world rather then focus so much on the mechanisms used to achieve them. There are lots of Women and men who are not feminist working for the same goals for example.
"Art is individualism, and individualism is a disturbing and disintegrating force. There lies it's immense value. For what it seeks is to disturb monotony of type, slavery of custom, tyranny of habit and the reduction of man to the level of a machine." Oscar Wilde. In other words, no collectivist has the right to call him/herself an artist.
Anon, your argument is based so entirely upon false assumptions and terms you confuse, conflate, misconstrue, or irrationally connect together (intentionally or otherwise) that it's impossible to directly address. It's very sad you don't see the irony here, how you're accusing others of using "groupthink" with such a rampant, brazen case of doublespeak. At least have some integrity, if not sense.
I know exactly what collectivism is. It's the belief that all individuals should subjugate themselves to some group ideology for some "greater good." Groupthink is merely the natural consequence of collectivism. There is no groupthink in individualism because there is no group. Only individuals.
My ideal of society is a world without politics for one thing. There's only three things that move this world. The arts, the sciences and commerce. These should be the only focuses of it's people. There should also be rule of law. It's rules and constructs that set us apart from the lower animals we are kindred to. History should be done away with. It's a falsehood. Completely subjective to the guy telling it. It can be used to pervert the course of the future or stagnate us completely, which is what I believe has already happened. People should only think about the present and the future. "Live in the present and look forward to the time to come." Backthink (thinking about the past) will in the first instance be punished by intensive reindoctrination. In the second instance, it will be death.
No history, no religion as Lois Lowry said in The Giver. Without history, faith, even suffering, we become shadows of what it means to be human "shadows of ourselves." Lois Lowry's book is an excellent, simple tribute of a world of when faith in God has been stolen from mankind and we have been reduced to sameness devoid of free-will. This is a totalitarian society, where choice is no longer possible. I listened to some Peter Kreeft on our society. See Youtube.
All human endeavor is a result of cooperation each person contributing for themselves yes but for others too. We should not blindly follow anyone but we can except other have different gifts and learn from them.
This is a great site people share interesting ideas and vieew points all linked by admiration to a varying degree to another person. Art Science belief systems all come for human interaction if it happens to be keyed by significant events, fine if it is just a personality wearing a nice dress also fine.
I do think concerns have been mentioned in this section that are serious and call for an honest respect for women. Women should also learn to repect themselves sexually. A woman is not just a machine but an identity. To help women deal in a healthy way with their sexuality other than just blanket birth control is very important to decreasing depression and suicide in women.
I think that feminism is a patchwork quilt. That allows me to live my life as a feminist the way I wish. I don't want a guru to come out and blow the trumpet with banner. I think of Hitler, Mussilini, Stalin, IS today- the greatest evil of the 20th and 21st century. These groups were unable let people live their beliefs as they wished. Nations are a patchwork of the human quilt. We have come to a basic consensus in the western world about are human-rights. Our Western society is developed upon the 10 Commandments as rules of the road. We have already proven that when the commandments are broken, the reesult is chaos on a small or greater scale. Feminism has many faces. My daughter came home from school and said that the Religion Teacher (Catholic School) said that Jesus was the first person who fought for th rights of women. When the jews wanted to stone the woman for adultry. He drew on the ground and said that he who has not sinned throw the first stone. All went away shamefaced. For two days my daughter and I searched the Bible for other such example- for her English project on Christian Feminist Movement. I was impressed and learned a lot from my daughter.
Of course they can, but don't you think that man and woman should preserve a certain dignitiy in expressing their sexuality. Animals are more discreet.
47 comments:
As if you can invent Jesus Christ and the Crucifixion. That is reality, historically proven. If he is the Son of God is faith. But you don't ask kids to come up with a religion. The Christian faith is a oral tradition over 2 thousand years old.
Some of the greatest saints- women have changed the world.
That woman speaks total nonsense. If you have any knowledge at all, you can only shake your head.
There are some things I agree with and a few things I don't, but overall it's interesting. Hopefully, Emma will release the full interview soon. Are you feeling better, Eden? I hope you are considering what happened last week.
There are some things I agree with and a few things I don't, but overall it's interesting.
For example?
Anon n2, this is the whole interview its just in 8 parts :)
I thinks its funny to have this interview in a kitchen.
And for me: It is one of her best natural and normale appearance
in the last few years!
Hope there will be more!
It was a very interesting interview covering many aspects of Feminism and women issues in general. They did agree on most key point I would have liked if they has explored some of the areas the did not agree on Caitlin being very let wing and Emma more liberal.
The ideas on education and exploring early what Gender and gender inequality means were particularity relevant.
I couldn't watch all of it, but I like the "culture wins" comment. I don't know if I'd call it culture, but art certainly wins. Unfortunately, there is also a significant anti-art, anti-intellectual movement, especially in places like the USA.
Listen to the philosopher Peter Kreeft, a philosopher at Boston College. Peter Kreeft looks at what is normal in society and promotes the faith in an individula regardless what they call themselves.
Peter Kreeft, a modern lay person, says that the saint is the normal person. See him on youtube. Now that is worth listening to: intellectual, critical of our society and the way we may see things, and food for thought. I may not agree with everything, but that is good intellectualism from the USA.
I cringed when I heard her refer to 1984 as a utopian fiction novel and started talking about programming people with the correct way to think.
I like that piece on optimism there is a tendency to dystopian fiction all end of the world stuff we have at the moment may be a little more of the Gene Roddenberry would not go a miss. You can't make a difference in the world with some belief things can improve.
We have made progress and continue to do so keeping an optimistic outlook can only move things on, can't make them any worse.
^ lol, they always do that. Get so foaming at the mouth they just start blurting out 1984 and Matrix references without any regard to making sense. But that was never really even a risk for you in the first place, huh? Making sense, that is.
She wasn't talking about 1984. I guess you don't know your history, because she was talking about the enlightenment as when people developed these lofty goals, and the post-enlightenment (which includes the era 1984 was written in) as when people have given up on attaining these goals. It's really incredibly simple. How embarrassing for you.
People are disillusioned with those goals because people have corrupted and perverted them time and again in reality. And besides that, there's nothing interesting about a perfect world with no conflicts, which is what a utopia is. So of course storytellers and filmmakers will choose the best story. Without conflict, there is no story to tell. So we get cautionary tales instead of blueprints for tedium. Cautionary tales are AS useful and more interesting.
I am optimistic we shall find a resolution :)
socialist and feminist actually. I do believe in cooperation but I have never been tamed :)
Funny to see how Caitlin "comes alive" when they talk about pornography :-)
Both sweet
So you're a collectivist then. Like I said, a boot licking puppy. Collectivism has never created anything of lasting value. The Nazis (who were also socialists) were destroyed within thirteen years. Communist Russia crumbled beneath itself. And the collectivist EU is experiencing upheavals. Individualism will win out in the end. It's the individual who creates, innovates and moves the world forward.
Groupthink, which is the natural consequence of collectivism, destroys any sense of individuality or creativity (for which individuality is a KEY ingredient). Thus, they create nothing. They simply claim what other individuals have made as their own. Have you ever heard a person saying "We did this" or "We did that?" Collectivism at work. They have no merits of their own so they claim the merits of their best elements to BE their own.
Also, history is a lie. Subjective to the person telling it. I could just as easily publish a book called "The Evilest Women in History" and fill it with feminist names and make up horrific crimes and I'll bet there will be people who would buy into it.
Sure Eden going to shout at me again for this but you did ask Anon.
You know groupthink best describes prejudice grouping others based on a single trait. You have an immature view of politics and peoples motives. You think me a puppy, fine I do not act out of fear, generally the source of anger. I believe in equality for everyone and fight for that even for you Anon.
To paraphrase the poet John Donne "No man (or woman) is an island"
I disagree. Everyone is a sovereign entity in and of itself and therefore is an island. A sovereign entity with dreams, ideas and goals which are more important and meaningful than any group of collectivist leeches.
No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
No shouting towards anyone just yet. I am deleting the post calling you a pet though.
I think Ross hit the nail on the head, there. Our Anon here is accusing others of what they subconsciously see in themselves.
Anon: "People are disillusioned with those goals because people have corrupted and perverted them time and again in reality. And besides that, there's nothing interesting about a perfect world with no conflicts, which is what a utopia is. So of course storytellers and filmmakers will choose the best story. Without conflict, there is no story to tell. So we get cautionary tales instead of blueprints for tedium. Cautionary tales are AS useful and more interesting."
Yeah, but her point was that now we actually have the knowledge and technology to achieve these goals. Sure conflict is interesting, but surely you don't believe that's the sole reason dystopian and apocalyptic fiction is so overwhelmingly prevalent?
So, your initial issue with the video was a complete misunderstanding on your part, and afterwards it sort of fizzled out into a forced criticism of her meaning behind the prevalence of dystopian fiction, and a series of personal attacks against Ross. I think we're all caught up, then.
Symptoms of Groupthink:
1.Over estimations of the groups power and morality (characterized by an unquestioning belief in the groups morality which encourages them to ignore the consequences of their actions and illusions of invulnerability leading to excessive optimism and risk taking.)
2.Closed mindedness (characterized by rationalizing warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions and stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, impotent or stupid.)
3.Pressures towards uniformity (characterized by censorship and self censorship of ideas that deviate from the group consensus, illusions of unanimity among group members with silence often being taken for agreement, direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group couched in terms of disloyalty and Mindguards, which are self proclaimed guardians of the group who shield it from dissenting information.
Sounds a lot like the cult of feminism to me.
I suspect most things do sound like a religion to you Anon.
Feminism is not it is a moment for equity for women across the world, supported
by a group of like minded individuals. There are women, men, religious and not including Emma and many other personalities; no central core and no conspiracy.
PDXP has addressed your other points. I would just add you look at the why people believe and do what they are trying to correct in the world rather then focus so much on the mechanisms used to achieve them. There are lots of Women and men who are not feminist working for the same goals for example.
"Art is individualism, and individualism is a disturbing and disintegrating force. There lies it's immense value. For what it seeks is to disturb monotony of type, slavery of custom, tyranny of habit and the reduction of man to the level of a machine." Oscar Wilde. In other words, no collectivist has the right to call him/herself an artist.
Art is for the individual. Only the individual creates.
Dear Anon, did Ross try to kill your puppy? If not, stop insulting him, thank you.
He did worse. He tried to coerce my puppy into selling it's soul for the sake of collectivism.
Anon, your argument is based so entirely upon false assumptions and terms you confuse, conflate, misconstrue, or irrationally connect together (intentionally or otherwise) that it's impossible to directly address. It's very sad you don't see the irony here, how you're accusing others of using "groupthink" with such a rampant, brazen case of doublespeak. At least have some integrity, if not sense.
I know exactly what collectivism is. It's the belief that all individuals should subjugate themselves to some group ideology for some "greater good." Groupthink is merely the natural consequence of collectivism. There is no groupthink in individualism because there is no group. Only individuals.
My ideal of society is a world without politics for one thing. There's only three things that move this world. The arts, the sciences and commerce. These should be the only focuses of it's people.
There should also be rule of law. It's rules and constructs that set us apart from the lower animals we are kindred to.
History should be done away with. It's a falsehood. Completely subjective to the guy telling it. It can be used to pervert the course of the future or stagnate us completely, which is what I believe has already happened. People should only think about the present and the future. "Live in the present and look forward to the time to come." Backthink (thinking about the past) will in the first instance be punished by intensive reindoctrination. In the second instance, it will be death.
Also, no religions and all mass group activity is banned. All mass groups are a collectivist risk. Individual pursuits will be encouraged.
No history, no religion as Lois Lowry said in The Giver. Without history, faith, even suffering, we become shadows of what it means to be human "shadows of ourselves." Lois Lowry's book is an excellent, simple tribute of a world of when faith in God has been stolen from mankind and we have been reduced to sameness devoid of free-will. This is a totalitarian society, where choice is no longer possible. I listened to some Peter Kreeft on our society. See Youtube.
All human endeavor is a result of cooperation each person contributing for themselves yes but for others too. We should not blindly follow anyone but we can except other have different gifts and learn from them.
This is a great site people share interesting ideas and vieew points all linked by admiration to a varying degree to another person. Art Science belief systems all come for human interaction if it happens to be keyed by significant events, fine if it is just a personality wearing a nice dress also fine.
I do think concerns have been mentioned in this section that are serious and call for an honest respect for women. Women should also learn to repect themselves sexually. A woman is not just a machine but an identity. To help women deal in a healthy way with their sexuality other than just blanket birth control is very important to decreasing depression and suicide in women.
I think that feminism is a patchwork quilt. That allows me to live my life as a feminist the way I wish. I don't want a guru to come out and blow the trumpet with banner. I think of Hitler, Mussilini, Stalin, IS today- the greatest evil of the 20th and 21st century. These groups were unable let people live their beliefs as they wished. Nations are a patchwork of the human quilt. We have come to a basic consensus in the western world about are human-rights. Our Western society is developed upon the 10 Commandments as rules of the road. We have already proven that when the commandments are broken, the reesult is chaos on a small or greater scale.
Feminism has many faces. My daughter came home from school and said that the Religion Teacher (Catholic School) said that Jesus was the first person who fought for th rights of women. When the jews wanted to stone the woman for adultry. He drew on the ground and said that he who has not sinned throw the first stone. All went away shamefaced. For two days my daughter and I searched the Bible for other such example- for her English project on Christian Feminist Movement. I was impressed and learned a lot from my daughter.
He also looked at her with love and told her to sin no more.
feminism does not have to be vulgar- 5x- i'm a humper. This is pathetic for an adult. Even Emma looked surprised- like gosh.
Feminism need to be honest ad allow women to express there sexuality in the same way men are free to.
Of course they can, but don't you think that man and woman should preserve a certain dignitiy in expressing their sexuality. Animals are more discreet.
Rape is the primary form of sexual intercourse for most animals.
Animals do not perceive intercourse in that way; it is a natural movement for them. They hump.
Sex is like eating and breathing a natural function. It is healthy and wise to discuss it openly and maturely. A Emma and Caitlin did here.
Post a Comment